Building a GT2052s & GT2252s Hybrid Turbo question.

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MY1PATH

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Does anybody know or have both these turbos on hand to compare?
My TD27 has a stock HT-12 and I know the newer TD27's GT2052s is a straight swap but I'm considering putting a slightly larger GT2252s from a BD30 on my td27.
The GT2252s does not have a water circuit and I was thinking about using the GT2052s center housing (CHRA) on the slightly larger turbo. I have neither turbo on hand but I'm pretty sure the shafts and wheels would swap over since they use the same bearings. I guess my big question is are the seal plates the same size or can they be swapped over too?

To clarify, I want to use td27 water cooled center housing with BD30 wheels in a BD30 turbo.
Alternatively, if the seal plates do fit or if only the compressor seal plate swaps... it begs curiosity to other combinations like a td27 side and BD30 compressor side...

None of these parts are local to me so I thought I'd ask before I throw cash all over the globe.
 

MY1PATH

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I'm going to venture a guess that all "T2" turbos share a common seal plate and CHRA sizing despite various compressor/turbine housings and wheel sizes that the might come with. If that's the case I guess It will work.

Since I didn't find an answer, my next step is to buy a complete GT2252, a GT2052 CHRA and try to make it work.
 
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Old.Tony

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Unfortunately a great many of us won't have both of those turbos and won't be able to help you.

However, you might be able to get precise measurements of things like impeller diameter and height for both (they have to be manufactured somewhere).

Alternatively, rather than produce a hybrid turbocharger that will be a challenge to replace in the event of failure, what about adapting the exhaust manifold to take the GT2252s and use the dump pipe from the BD30? More info (specs and pricing) is here and here.
 

MY1PATH

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Alternatively, rather than produce a hybrid turbocharger that will be a challenge to replace in the event of failure, what about adapting the exhaust manifold to take the GT2252s and use the dump pipe from the BD30? More info (specs and pricing) is here and here.

Actually, Your alternative is simpler than that. Delete the coolant lines and add an actuator bracket to allow clocking... That's it! Flange pattern on the manifold and dump pipe are the same. I was just looking to retain water the cooling to combat heat soak and improve longevity.

If it needed service in the future the only custom part would be the CHRA so it would just be a CHRA rebuild instead of a replacement.
 

Old.Tony

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I hear you about the cooling. The oil - while plentiful - doesn't do a lot. The coolant does help.

How much boost are you looking for? Have you considered a D40's turbo (Garrett GT2056V) with an adapter plate? It develops around 23psi at full noise (although it can be restrained by a Dawes or Tillix valve).
 

MY1PATH

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I find I that can't build boost fast enough with a traditional waste gate I may move towards a VGT... but for now I'm wanting to setup with a traditional internal wastegate. Probably 18-20 PSI intercooled.

I know the GT2052s will do 20 psi but its right on the outside edge of the compressor map.
The GT2252s is not much larger and 20 psi is near the middle of it's compressor map and it should also boost cooler. Lag increase should be minimal, if any.
 

tweak'e

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I hear you about the cooling. The oil - while plentiful - doesn't do a lot. The coolant does help.
all turbo's are actually oil cooled. the water cooling does sweet stuff all, until shutdown. water cooling primary job is to reduce heat soak.
one of the issues of doing aftermarket water cooled turbo is setting up the system so it will circulate by itself after engine (and water pump) is off.

as a general rule diesels run cool enough to not really need water cooling on the turbo.
manufactures only do it because know nothing consumers go blasting up hills and shut the engine straight off, and that modern engines bays tend to be cramped which doesn't allow much cooling when vehicle/fan is stopped.
 

tweak'e

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I find I that can't build boost fast enough with a traditional waste gate I may move towards a VGT... but for now I'm wanting to setup with a traditional internal wastegate. Probably 18-20 PSI intercooled.
are you even going to be able to run enough fuel to make use of 18-20psi?

i know guys have done a fair bit of work on those but can't recall what boost they needed.
 

MY1PATH

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My pump builder says my new pump will do 200 hp or more.
It's got an 11mm qd32 head on it, adjustable boost compensator, increased range of timing advance and a few other mods done to it. I hope to have it in the next week or two :)

For reference, last week I saw dyno results to 25 PSI. Guy put down 175hp and almost 300 ftlbs (403nm) of torque to the wheels. He's running a T3/T4 hybrid turbo and a 12mm compensated pump. His goal is 200 hp to the wheels, but surely he's already got that much at the crank. :tazzy:
 

MY1PATH

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I find I that can't build boost fast enough with a traditional waste gate I may move towards a VGT... but for now I'm wanting to setup with a traditional internal wastegate. Probably 18-20 PSI intercooled.

I know the GT2052s will do 20 psi but its right on the outside edge of the compressor map.
The GT2252s is not much larger and 20 psi is near the middle of it's compressor map and it should also boost cooler. Lag increase should be minimal, if any.
Boy was I wrong! The GT22 makes plenty of boost if you drive it like a race car but nothing useful below 2500 RPM. The was frustrating mistake.

Take 2: I am now on a GT2052v with an oil only circuit and I am happy with it. There is so much boost volume that EGT's stay pretty low and heat soak is much less. Plus I can have 16 psi before 2,000 rpm and I'm currently peaking at 19psi somewhere above 2500 RPM. No electronic VNT controller and no Dawes valve, just boost straight into an actuator like you would a waste gate. This is what I should have started with!
 

tweak'e

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Boy was I wrong! The GT22 makes plenty of boost if you drive it like a race car but nothing useful below 2500 RPM. The was frustrating mistake.

Take 2: I am now on a GT2052v with an oil only circuit and I am happy with it. There is so much boost volume that EGT's stay pretty low and heat soak is much less. Plus I can have 16 psi before 2,000 rpm and I'm currently peaking at 19psi somewhere above 2500 RPM. No electronic VNT controller and no Dawes valve, just boost straight into an actuator like you would a waste gate. This is what I should have started with!
isn't the GT2052v the variable turbo off the zd30 patrol ?
they need to be vacuum operated (eg dawes valve). they generally run poorly when using a waste gate style boost actuator.
 

MY1PATH

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yes indeed, I am running a VNT and controlling it with boost feedback only. I removed the vacuum actuator, installed a boost actuator and it works great! I set the stop screw for my desired early boost without too much surge and the actuator arm to control my desired peak boost. I bench tested it to 14 psi with compressed air and it did just that on first start up. Now I have it at 18-19 peak with very fast response down low.
For the simplicity of the setup and how well it is working for me I think it's just fine.
279396256_572386617429047_732989626825752019_n.jpg 279452747_3218332085108955_4569365508160409055_n.jpg
 

tweak'e

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i think the problem with boost only control is lack of wastegate control at low boost levels. ie you only have small amount of pressure to operate the actuator, compared to a vac system which has full pressure available when it wants it.
if i remember right they tried it on the patrol and the turbo over boosts due to the setup being to slow to react. not enough vane movement during the low boost stage and then the boost climbs faster than the vanes can open.

however as your running a smaller, lower flow, lower powered engine your getting away with it. however that may change if you increase fuel at some stage.
then the fix is easy, put the vac control back on and use dawes valve.
 

MY1PATH

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I'm not saying there isn't trade-offs, I'm just saying it works good :)
There's a number of advantages vacuum control has especially when the vacuum line is ECU controlled in my case I think the two biggest advantage vacuum has over me is:
-Letting the engine breathe easier under light throttle for better fuel economy... I'm stuck with using vane stop screw to choosing my compromise.
-Venting boost quicker to reduce surge... That is also a balance with the vane stop screw but also how fast I let off the throttle. Under 20 psi good driving habits manage the surge just fine. Over 20 psi I'm starting to hear it just a little because the pressure is higher when I let off (I pushed it to 25 this weekend and then back down to 20)

Vacuum pulling against spring
vs
Spring pulling against boost...
Assuming 18 to 23 automotive vacuum... Yeah I can totally see your point and I've got an example too:
-Set at 14 PSI I got a lot more "wastegate creep" (vane creep?) It come to 10PSI instantly and climb to 14.
-Set at 18 psi it hits 16 pretty quick, it just plain spools faster than when it was set to 14. I got to turn the stop screw to reduced surge and keep the earlier school so it was a win-win.
-At 19, 20 and 25 psi I haven't worried about spool very much so I don't know if it's faster but I don't think it is.

Fuel:
Fuel was set from the stock Turbo at 15 psi and awesome winter temps, heat soaked intake did not exist. I have not increased fuel with boost, weather getting hotter heat soak is real and for now, the extra PSI is EGT management/reduced heat soak. It's working but I'm looking forward to intercooling and then I will add fuel...
 

MY1PATH

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UPDATE:
22-23 psi now on the VNT with water to air intercooling and increased fuel to match.
She's a happy truck!
 
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